UPDATE: I have created a new survey to gather some data from visitors on the different types of Agnosia people experience and how the types might be related. Go here to take the survey. It shouldn’t take more than 15 minutes.
As I’ve mentioned in earlier writing, I am unable to see pictures in my head. By that, I mean, whether I am awake or asleep, I am completely incapable of clearly picturing anyone or anything. And if you think zombie dreams are scary when you can clearly see the zombies, and the sidewalk you’re running on, and the door you’re going to hide behind… imagine if all that was just a series of blurry blobs? That’s some night terror.
While this has been my state as long as I can remember, it truly never occurred to me that there was any other way to be. In retrospect, it’s actually slightly silly. For years I’ve heard people say, “Visualize that in your mind.” Why I never thought on the fact that I am incapable of performing the task, I’ll never know. I guess, like a poster of a new forum I found, I just assumed they meant it metaphorically.
There were other things too, that should’ve brought me to really examine this deficiency in my mind. For instance, I cannot draw. I don’t mean I just can’t draw well, I mean I am truly crap at it. I hated art classes in high school, because I couldn’t create anything visually motivated; painting, sculpture, even collages were fairly pointless. Later in life I got decent at doing some graphic work on computers, but even that is usually manipulating other things I’ve seen into a form I like better. Photography is the only kind of visual medium I don’t suck at. I guess it’s because I don’t have to hold an image in my mind to create it. The camera does the heavy lifting.
My turning point, when I fully realized just what I’m missing, happened about a year ago. For a single moment my brain actually worked as (in my opinion) it should. Fiction has commented before on that magical time between awake and asleep. That’s when it happened. Suddenly, there was a flash in my mind, and it was just there; a perfect purple stormy sunset, over an ocean side cliff. I could see the cliff line in sharp relief, the fluffy yet ominous clouds and the light filtering through them to splash colors across the sky. It wasn’t even a memory. I’m fairly certain I’ve never seen that gorgeous vista before in my life, but it was truly breathtaking. Maybe a second or two later, it was gone, and I was asleep.
I wish I’d been awake enough to fully appreciate it, though I wonder if it could’ve even happened while I was more conscious. Sadly, while I recall what elements were in this glorious image, thanks to my defective brain, I cannot recreate even that picture in my mind. But the next morning, as I thought of this vision, I was fully cognizant of just what I have been missing all my life. And I will admit a certain resentment over the facts. My brain has an inability to create visual imagery. Despite the fact that I’ve been told I have a certain talent for writing visual imagery, I can’t actually see it.
It is in moments like these, I really feel a small sense of satisfaction in who I am. Despite this impairment, I learned to create pictures in the minds of others. Even with my attention and memory problems (which I suspect are closely tied to this deficiency), I’ve learned to be an effective technical writer and a manager of a fairly large department. I will never claim that I’ve come close to overcoming these problems, but I can at least admit to myself that I’ve adapted fairly well. I am not a completely non-productive and unimaginative person. 
But still… to see that sunset again.
So through a little research, and some self reflection (and we all know how I love to do that), I’ve pieced together this much. For one thing, there is a real condition called prosopagnosia (visit prosopagnosia.com to learn more), but more commonly referred to as “face blindness.” This is why I felt like a schmuck when an old high school acquaintance approached me recently, and it took several moments for me to remember that I’d known her at all. Without the ability to see faces in your mind, it’s fairly difficult to recall them later for recognition purposes. It also means I would be rubbish at describing a criminal to a sketch artist. Let’s hope I never witness a crime. But clearly my issue goes beyond that.
I also found an article, where a german university did a study on people to see how many suffered from prosopagnosia. Of the 689 tested, they found 17 cases. Of those 17, 14 of them had at least one close family member who also had the condition. My sister, as I believe I mentioned earlier, also has the same visualization problems I do (her former roommate does not have this problem, and she is an incredibly talented artist). My mother, like most other people who aren’t afflicted, almost seems to think I’m just imagining the issue. She can’t conceptualize how I see things in my head. Since dad passed when I was 6, no way to know if he suffered. And since my sis and I were over 30 when we came to this realization, he might not even have known himself.
But the article also presented another odd wrinkle. People with prosopagnosia often have a hard time following movies, and can’t recognize actors in other films, because it’s hard for them to follow who is who. Now that is something I’ve never had any problem with. They’ll occasionally be two or three actors I mix up a lot at first (like Thomas Jane, Aaron Eckhart & Josh Lucas), but eventually I get them sorted in my head. But then again, I watch A LOT of movies. My sister does as well, but she does have a harder time remembering actors.
Additionally, the faces are only a part of the problem for me. I cannot see anything, in my mind, with any definition or clarity. So what is that called? Hell if I can find out. I’ve been hunting, and so far I can’t even find evidence anyone has even studied this phenomenon. But I’m not alone. I found a forum where a handful of people were discussing this very topic. I’ve joined, and hope to use their input and my own experiences to research more on this.
Here’s what I’ve learned about dreams and visual imagery in my head. I don’t see anything at all. What my mind conjures are vague blobs of color and substance that my brain can explain as something I want to interact with. What I genuinely experience is my sensory and/or emotional response to said object/person. When I dream, I’m experiencing every emotion involved in a scenario, and it drives the narrative, but because there’s nothing concrete to work with, it jumps around haphazardly. As a result, even when I’m completely aware I’m dreaming, I can’t ever go lucid. It’s simply impossible to interact with nothingness.
Something else I’ve noticed. There are a some faces I can almost see pieces of in my mind. It’s not fully there, but every so often I’ll catch an eye line or an accurate move of the lips. But it’s not my family. It’s actors. Actors who are among the most emotionally expressive can win over my brain… Christian Kane, Jensen Ackles, Michael Weatherly, Zachary Levi… Ok they aren’t all cute guys around my age. 
Also, Sally Field, Richard Dreyfuss, Alyson Hannigan, Tim Roth, Meg Ryan. There are others, but you get the gist. It’s only certain scenes, in certain films, and certain emotions, but it’s there. I can picture the scene and occasional get a glimpse of a piece of a face, that truly drives my emotional response to their work.
So once again I’m back to the theory that whatever part of my brain is not function the way I’d like, is not entirely broken. That there are brief moments of clarity must indicate that it’s somewhat functional.
I am also aghast at just how little I’m able to find on this condition. This phenomenon would have huge impact on education. One individual on the forum above had serious difficulties with math, as a result of the condition. I was actually fairly good at algebra, but atrocious at geometry. And I do use his trick of figuring out simple multiplication problems, in my head, by using the 5 times table and adding/subtracting from there. And imagine how this affects the ability to learn geography (a class I abhorred almost as much as art). People should be studying this, treatments should be investigated, it needs attention. It may only be a small part of the population, but that also applies to dyslexia. We still realized that we had to adjust our educational model for those individuals. I can’t even find good statistics on how many people suffer from prosopagnosia, much less this more pronounced version that seems to have no definition. If anyone can find more information, please pass it along.
I will continue to do my own research on this problem, and will pass along any insights I can gleam. I’d also love if some of the other afflicted would pass their own stories along. Comparisons to different forms or levels of ability could be useful. And finally, I’d like to offer myself up as a guinea pig. If you are in a position to study this condition, and/or study any possible treatments, I am game. There are several things that I know I could do, if I could only address this short circuit. I am willing to be poked, prodded, MRI’d and electroded. Anything to advance this topic into, at the least, something that the world recognizes and understands. Got a lab? I’m your rat.
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Interesting article. I too suffer from the inability to visual anything in my mind. I find it most frustrating as I run several websites in my spare time and they are always lacking in visual style as I can’t see anything in my head to then attempt to reproduce. The only ones that are use artwork that I get drawn for me and I then effectively trace lol. My trade I am a developer but I specialise in back end code writing which part of me wonders if that side of my brain, along with numbers is makes up for the lack of visuals.
I must say I don’t have a problem with faces but I do have a terrible remembering names. So I’ll see a face, I’ll know I know them but I can’t put a name to it.
Ditto on the name/face thing. I’m pretty good remembering faces, just can’t always place where I know them from.
I can’t visualize at all, if I close my eyes & I see the back of my eyelids. I can not see even the simplest shape like a dot or square. I didn’t understand how strange I was until I was in art school & there was all this talk of visualizing before you drew something. I have no problem visualizing in my dreams, very clear & vivid. Part of me feels that this inability will keep me from becoming a professional artist.
thanks for all the info you’ve gathered.
Nara:
I’ve wondered if any other artists would show up here! I know Kat and others have reported that they can not draw at all but I’m just the opposite. I too see nothing when I close my eyes. I don’t even dream visually, as best as I can tell. I can, however draw and paint fairly well. I’m currently enrolled as an Art student here in Toledo.
I think that this inability actually improves my end product – I paint what I see – but I see very deeply. I realize that might not be the case for everyone, but it works for me. The only area that suffers is in abstraction but I’m not sure if that’s because of the visualizing problems or because I lean more toward representational and realism in my work and preferences.
If you enjoy your art, stick with it.
A couple of things for you guys to check out.
This is just a brief little article on Agnosia and it’s types. From it’s title, it claims to offer far more information than it has, but always great to see more press.
And speaking of press, an actual NYTimes blog series on Anonagnosia. Granted, this is one of the kinds that are already getting more attention because it’s generally trauma related. But it got Keith Olbermann talking about it on Twitter, and I even got him to take my Agnosia Assessment Survey. No kidding, see for yourself!
And something actually cooler than the Olbermann thing, if you can believe it. The people working on Developmental Topographical Disassociation are developing a plan for a research study (complete with MRI!) on their branch of Agnosia. I let the head of the group know that he could count on any help from me he needs in getting more volunteers, so head on over and take their assessment test if you haven’t done it yet. http://www.gettinglost.ca/. Remember every step in the direction of research is a step in the direction of treatment and positive changes in education for the future.
Kat;
Just a thought, but what if we all get onto our Twitter and Facebook accounts and post about the “disorder” with a link to this page. I’d love to see how many people we shock into realizing they have the same problem.
I can’t visualize anything at all; ever. I was trying to explain this to my mom and a few other people in the room when suddenly my mom’s best friend stopped everything and says “Wait! It’s not a metaphor? People can actually see things in their heads?” She’s 63 and I totally changed her world. I watched her figure it out, and it reminded me of my epic paradigm shift when I was 21.
I feel strongly that if the medical community started researching this, then it would drastically improve our educational system.
Just a thought. If you want to get this going my Twitter handle @JennyIngles
Joanie – I agree that the specialized schools and tutoring programs have known for years that you need to look at different ways to educate different kids. And I’m glad dyslexia is getting more attention in public schools than it used to, but I also see my kid struggle with geography and know the problem is still very much there.
Jenny – Already said hi on Twitter, but if you’d like to put a link to this article anywhere feel free. I tweet about it regularly and all my tweets go to my Facebook page (so I never have to touch the thing). I admit I don’t make it a constant thing, but when ever I find something new I update it on my SocNets as well. I’ve been trying to get the word out about this survey I created since last night. It seems mildly grandiose, but I keep hoping word on it will start spread and at some point (even if it’s a year or two) I’ll have some really great data, as well as more waking more people up like your mom’s friend (I actually laughed at that, she pretty much said exactly what I did the first time I realized). Maybe they can even develop treatments some day. Since you’re like me, and have no discernible visual memory to speak of, I imagine you’re also like me in the frustration of it. The one momentary flash I had made me want it even more. Just knowing I was capable, for a few seconds, of really seeing something in my minds eye… it made this want mildly obsessive I admit.
Not grandiose at all – you’re stepping up and representing and those of us who share the symptoms appreciate it.
I admit, I have not been on this webpage in a long time… however it was another joy to see It is such an important topic and ignored by so many, even professionals. I thank you to help making people more aware of possible issues.
Great stuff as usual…
I’m almost afraid of being resented for posting here, but i can’t really imagine what this must be like.. I’m the exact opposite, i can hold an image in mind with enough clarity that my eyes don’t register anything in front of me.. It’s hard for me to grasp how it could be any other way, since i’d guess about half of my thinking is visual… I’d realized that some people had problems with this, but i never knew that there were people that literally just can’t do it… ugh.. D:
Thanks for piping in Steven. I say anyone is welcome in the conversation, even those who just empathize with the condition.
And that is why so many people, without these disabilities, tend to think the rest of us are just imagining this problem. And I understand why they feel that way. I mean, if many of us went the bulk of our lives without even knowing we had these issues, it stands to reason the ‘normal’ people wouldn’t know anything about it.
Oddly, even though I don’t actually see images with any clarity, I’ve had experiences with my life where my imagination overrode my regular brain for a while. When I was a kid I had a crying fit once because my sister was sitting too close to the edge of a river wall in town. I can’t say I could literally see her drowning in my head, obviously, but I kept imagining her being washed up on the river eventually (it is the Mississippi after all) and it caused childhood hysterics.
I guess all our brains have their own bizarre wiring.
I’m currently in an oil painting class. I render what I see quite well (IMHO
but never really tried painting ‘out of my head’ without doing a detailed sketch first. The other day I tried it and it’s coming along pretty well but I’m noticing that the painting goes way faster but the ’stand back and analyze what’s next’ time tripled.
Anyway, I was telling the teacher that I’d decided to resolve one section by melding two forms together and she said “If you can’t visualize, how can you know how it will look?” Well, I just know – I see how it will work, I just can’t see ‘it’. She’s still pretty dubious.
For those commenters that have expressed that they feel their ability to draw might be compromised by an inability to visualize, I think it may be the opposite. Representative art is about ’seeing’ – taking the time to really look and absorb detail and difference. The condition may hinder the ability to create abstraction (although I’m not giving up on trying!) but I think it actually helps the ability to separate what is there from what your brain tells you should be there.
@Steven – no offense taken here. The more people that realize that there are differences in perception and memory retention, the better.
My name is Tim and I’m a non-visualizer …
I never realized anyone COULD do it until I was in my late 20’s. Once you realize that pretty much everyone takes for granted something you can’t do, you tend to obsess, and I did. As a result of subsequent conversations, I’ve concluded that the total inability is very rare and most people don’t believe that anyone can’t do this. This is the first compilation I’ve found of others that share this experience. My own experiences echo many of the above anecdotes and I find that somewhat comforting.
Even after finding out that others could do it, I never really put much thought until recently how differently my thought processes / memory techniques would be if I could. Several people above mentioned dreams – I dream rarely and when I do, it is a jumbled collection of random events / things. There was this penguin and a wheel bearing and something was on fire … I guess I always assumed they were visual but the other night I actually had a logical dream. It was enough of a surprise that it woke me enough to reflect on it and I realized that even that wasn’t really visual – rather it was ‘displayed more like remembered actual events.
In the absence of info from others that share this condition, I have asked a ton of people about their experience with visualization. Here are the conclusions I’ve drawn from my subjective, non-scientific inquiries of 100+ people. While anecdotal, it’s as much as I’ve discovered.
* < 15% of people can visualize full motion, change colors, substitute objects and rotate individual elements within their mental image.
* Most people can visualize in color, < 20% are BW only.
* This visualization occurs (relative to a 'point in the center of your brain'
in the following locations and typically, the order presented represents the ability to form these images:
- Heads up (in line of vision), eyes open, true vision unobstructed. [Greatest ability]
- High right/left – eyes averted, no need to turn head.
- High right/left – head 'cocked up' to side, eyes often closed.
- Head down, eyes closed – heavy concentration [Least ability]
* A surprising number of artists fall into the lower end of the scale of ability to form mental images.
*Graphic visualization doesn't necessarily correlate with spatial visualization (the ability to know which way a complex object needs to be oriented to fit through an opening, for example)
I function just fine as an IT professional and am fairly proficient in my artistic pursuits as well (drawing and painting). If I could suddenly 'flip a switch', I'd have to put some thought into it unless I was certain that it could easily be turned back off. All in all, I don't see it as a crippling disability but I do think that it deserves notice, particularly by educators that may not realize that their approach may need to be modified to fully reach all of their targets.
@Kat – Again, thanks for hosting this discussion.
Just found your site and will read it in depth later but wanted to send an early thanks for the effort. It seems that the only ones interested in trying to investigate this are those of us that suffer from it. (although suffer may not be the appropriate word – I’m 51 and have never had the ability. If I suddenly developed it, I’d never get anything done!)
Peace!
@Tim: Thanks for adding to the conversation. I know how frustrating it can be to go hunting for anything on this ‘condition’. It really is no wonder how little information there is when you figure people with it are the only ones looking, and the majority of the people who have it don’t even know it. I also know what you mean about having just gotten used to dealing with it. But I tell ya, if I could just flip a switch on a synapse and turn the right parts of my brain on, I think I’d have to try it.
@All: An interesting little addition I’d like to throw in. The other day I got into an argument on Twitter regarding the public education system. Basically, my thinking is that the generalized curriculum/tools plan is a giant failure. The person with the opposing viewpoint basically took the position that we just need more teachers. I think she took my arguments as a dismissal of the role of the teacher in today’s educational system. In the midst of that conversation I dug about through statistics (primarily through the Wiki that I don’t remember having come across before) that suggested as much as 40% of the population might suffer from a learning disability in the Agnosia/Dyslexia family. Though what percentage of them are aware of it would likely be half of that number.
Also during this conversation I commented that, in the last year, I’d talked to at least 5 people who had one (or more) of these learning impairments and didn’t know it. Within 5 minutes of making that comment, one of my Twitter buddies adds his name to the list, after having read the links I tweeted. It reinforces the point, doesn’t it?
I’ve read several good articles on how E-book readers are doing wonders for the dyslexic. Considering my son’s own concentration problems while reading, I’m looking into the possibilities of getting him one. Plus, Intel’s got a great new device for reading aloud to the dyslexic and visually impaired. All of this goes back to my original argument with this woman.
I think the smartest move the educational system of this country can make is the elimination of standardized curriculum/tools approach to teaching. People simply learn in too many different ways for textbooks and No.2 pencils to still be the standard. Private education programs all know that the first thing you start with is testing and screening. If a test was developed – for students going into kindergarten – that determined what forms of input they were more likely to retain, we could easily learn what the best ways are to teach each child. Then, a set form of curriculum could be devised for each type of learning. For instance, say testing shows that your best forms of input are auditory and you absorb visual materials best if they are clean and fairly monochrome. Learning materials/tools could be applied to your educational plan that are designed to successfully educate you. Maybe you need an e-book reader with set visual preferences. Maybe you need an MP3 track to accompany your text book. Maybe you need to be tested using a computer terminal because traditional testing methods confuse and/or frazzle you (a genuine problem for some kids).
The point is, focusing on standardized testing and more static curriculum is a step backward. The way forward is acknowledging that standardization is not only failing it is a bottomless pit of further mistakes, it’s hurting way too many smart kids who just can’t learn in a traditional public school system. Sure, the tools and resources would be an initial cost we have to consider, but I look at it much like Health Care Reform; in the long term it will be more expensive not to do it. Our educational system is falling behind the rest of the world at a rapid pace. We need a serious directional shift.
Montessori is based on this as well as some non-traditional schools. I wish the 13 years of hardship away for traditional schooled dyslexics. Just because you don’t learn the way someone wants you to, does NOT mean the problem lies with you. God Bless.
Scott inspired to do a little more digging today. Found a few things of interest. I keep thinking that, the more people who find out what this is, and how it affects us, the closer we might be to more scientists/researchers making an effort to map the different issues and look for treatment options. It seems likely that, if you look at what different agnosia (and other visual memory impairment issues) people have, where their factors overlap might actually point to the location in the brain that is impaired. At this point, it seems small groups of independent researchers are looking at pieces of the puzzle, but no one is coordinating their information/efforts. At least that’s what it looks from an outside observers position. But it also appears we are just in the beginnings of anyone truly recognizing visual memory impairments beyond dyslexia. After all, my pediatrician had never even heard about it. The conditions that are getting the most attention are visual memory problems associated with specific brain injury/illness, but not many people are looking at individuals born with these impairments.
I found another similar condition, that might also affect some of us as well (and every bit of information helps); Developmental Topographic Disorientation, which basically “individuals’ inability to orient in an environment,” can affect your ability to navigate in an unfamiliar area, or even a moderately familiar area. For instance, I’ve lived in the same area for most of my life, but if I go to a slightly difficult to find location only once or twice a year, it will be hard for me to find it again without specific landmarks. I also hate people giving me directions as opposed to giving me an address, because even writing down their directions won’t guarantee I find the place. There’s a good site dedicated to this impairment, and they have a pretty comprehensive test on visual memory problems in general. It took about an hour altogether, but I think the results are interesting and helpful. My results confirmed something I have long known, that if I make a concerted effort I can find ways to partially but never fully compensate for my impairments. Here’s the site, for anyone interested.DEVELOPMENTAL TOPOGRAPHICAL DISORIENTATION
I also found the blog of a couple of doctors who seem to be gathering lots of information on visual memory impairments of all kinds, and how it affects learning and other skills. I’m still reading through it, but so far there’s lost of good info. I thought everyone might like to check it out. http://eideneurolearningblog.blogspot.com/
Keep hunting folks. Maybe some day we’ll all just be able to take a pill or get a post-hypnotic suggestion that let’s us see beautiful pictures in our head.
Ahh, and some more helpful information folks. I’ve got some new search/buzz words for you. How this could help the research. This little paragraph from an article I found on the a href=”http://eideneurolearningblog.blogspot.com/” title=”blog”> I mentioned, has this breakdown of the different types of images one can experience.
- during visualization, “not only does one ’see oneself’ perform an action (a visual image), but also one is aware of the spatial relations of objects and their parts (spatial images), the sounds associated with an action (auditory images), and the bodily sensations that accompany movements (kinesthetic images)
Visual, Spatial, Auditory and Kinesthetic. Using these (might need to add in a term for smell/taste) as the basis for a series of questions about the things you experience in memories, both awake and asleep, you could possibly plot out a map of each persons version of Agnosia. It would probably work much like the Meyers-Briggs Personality Types assessment too.
Kind of odd, I know.
Hey there,
Like everyone else, I’d like to say ‘thanks’ both for the research that you have done, as well as for sharing it with the lot of us. Until now, I wasn’t even aware what this condition was called. I’ve been searching the web for a while (I found your blog via the forum that you mentioned.) I’m hoping that being equipped with the name of it will help my own, personal research.
I realized that my mind’s eye was blind two years ago, shortly after my twentieth birthday. My friend had given me a guided meditation CD. Needless to say, it didn’t quite work. =P
I’ve talked to the people in my life, and it looks like my dad has the same problem, to a lesser degree. He can envision things, but it takes a good deal of effort for him to do so. My mom and sisters don’t have any problem picturing things in their minds, and they all seem to think that I’m just exaggerating a lack of imagination.
There are three things that I’ve noticed from my own experience that I feel are connected to my lack of mental imagery. One is that I have an unusually strong kinesthetic aptitude. That’s not to say that I’m particularly athletic, but that I’ve a heightened sense of muscle memory. I can learn almost any activity simply by doing it once or twice. For example, I can fold hundreds of different pieces of origami without any conscious thought… most of which I learned years ago, while I was very young.
I’m not sure if anyone else has experienced this, but I’ve also noticed that my ‘imagination’ seems to consist of a medley of intellectual thoughts and abstract concepts that have been given some form of mass (it’s difficult to describe in words.) If I’m told to imagine a red square I don’t see a red square, but I take the idea of one and it’s that idea that I hold on to. Somehow, it’s as if my mind gives the idea a depth that makes it almost mentally tangible. Once again, it’s hard to put into words. As far as I can tell, this looks to be somehow related to the previously mentioned kinesthetic abilities.
The last thing that I’ve noticed is that, while I love reading, I don’t get nearly as much out of the experience as others seem to. While they get lost in the imagery, I read solely for the enjoyment of the plot. Most of the time, my mind doesn’t even register any details regarding the character’s appearances, unless their appearance somehow impacts the plot. This is what led me to try and find some sort of published information, or possible treatment. I’d give nearly anything to see the story the way it was meant to be seen.
Aside from that, my experiences have been fairly consistent with the others who have posted. If you do find a study that needs participants, I’d love to help out. Also, I’m free if you’d ever like to chat. You have my email address, so don’t be afraid to use it!
- Scott
PS. Sorry about the wall o’ text. I’m just excited to have finally found some useful info. =P
Scott, thanks for the comment. I’ve also tried various form of guided meditation and lucid dreaming programs. They are fairly well useless for me. Oddly, one of the keys to lucid dreaming is the ability to recognize that you are dreaming, which I do often. But to be able to interact with the dream elements, you need to be able to see them well enough to interact, and so it’s a lost cause it seems.
Also a common element we’re seeing; people without these impairments can’t conceptualize what it is like for the rest of us. That’s not a criticism. It reminds me of when Parker on the TV show Leverage revealed she could draw faces easily from memory. Because she could always do it, she just assumed everyone else could. It works the same in reverse. People who can see pictures in their minds eye can’t imagine that others are unable to do it.
I don’t have the same degree of kinesthetic memory you do, but I do find that I am able to learn some kinds of repetitive tasks very quickly (mostly computer skills). I’m starting to think a lot of the things we are good at (memory wise) are the product of compensation for our impairments, like blind people hearing better. For instance, while I have a great appreciation for written visual imagery in my reading, I also can’t often use it the way others can. I’m more driven by character dialog than anything in a book, and so I’ll remember entire paragraphs of dialog but couldn’t draw a map of areas repeatedly visited in a story (well I could draw one, but it would take a concerted effort and the book handy).
And I also like your description of the red square. My brain works much the same. I can’t see the square, but I can conceptualize what it is based on what I know about a square and the color red. And again, tied to the overcompensation, I hear voices in my head far better than I can ever imagine seeing faces (this could be tied to my being a writer who’s big on dialog though).
But once again, I feel like every bit of new information might lead us somewhere eminently helpful.
Karen & Frank, thanks for sharing! I have to say, the fact that people are finding this post at all (through what I’m sure are search engine phrase look-ups), says a lot about the limited amount of information on Visual Object Agnosia, Prosopagnosia, and similar visual memory conditions. In fact, it’s one of the reasons my own research has stalled (I got pretty frustrated when my pediatrician hadn’t even heard of either condition). It seems that Dyslexia is the only really commonly studied learning disability of this sort, and I suspect that has to do with the standardized testing method of learning that would be impossible to apply to a child that can’t see letters in the order they appear. But I am also convinced that, if this problem were screened for (and they had a treatment), it would be a huge improvement to teaching/training in the world. I will keep looking for more information. And if anyone else finds some more info, please pass it along. Thanks.
I knew there had to be other folks with this. Thanks for writing about it. I was in my 30’s before I realized that when people talked about picturing things in their head they were really visualizing something. I just thought it was a way of talking about things. I did pretty well in school, and didn’t know I was missing anything. Sometimes I find myself thinking I caught some fleeting sense of an image, but it’s gone as soon as I sense it, and I really can’t say that I saw anything. I rarely remember my dreams, and I feel like there is some sort of visual component to them, but again there is never any image that I can fix in my head. When I’m at a restaurant, if I don’t consciously notice some characteristics of the waiter/waitress I have to ask my wife which server was ours if I need to get their attention.
In trying to understand how I think about things I keep coming back to the notion of concepts and abstractions. Ideas seem almost like tangible objects to me. Verbal and emotional thought are important to my thinking, but concepts and ideas are central. In some sense I suppose it could be described as a learning disability, though I don’t believe it’s hindered me in any way. Still, I would love at least once to know what it’s like to clearly picture something in my head.
Thanks again to all who have shared about this.
Thanks for all of this information. I never knew that other people had this problem, and I’m tired of trying to explain it to people who don’t. I cannot make pictures regardless of if I am awake or asleep. I realized I had a problem when I was in college majoring in Chemistry. I had to drop out of Organic Chem because you absolutely have to be able to create pictures in your head. It was a very sad experience for me and I felt stupid.
I am horrible with geography as well, and I cannot spell to save my life. I frequently mix up letters and numbers, but I am not dyslexic. I also cannot remember the order of the alphabet and I have to sing the song to myself every time I need to alphabetize something. I’m not sure if this is a problem for anyone, but I feel that it is, in-part, due to my inability to visualize.
Thank you very much for posting this.
Jenny – First let me apologize that your comment sat unapproved for so long. I had let the spam comments build a bit, and didn’t realize a legitimate one had popped in there.
I also use the alphabet song to do things like, figure out the amount of letters between F and O (some IQ/aptitude tests have questions like that). I also use the days in a month rhyme to remember that piece of information. I have discovered that my ability to learn audibly is better than most people’s, probably some kind of compensation in my brain.
I also win bar bets by listing all the 50 states, in alphabetical order, in under a minute. This is thanks to a song I learned in the 5th grade.
Thanks for the comments from fellow sufferers of this bizarre little condition. I asked my son’s pediatrician if he’d ever even heard of it, and I ended up spending a while explaining what it is. My son also goes to a family counselor with his dad/stepmom, thanks to some of his dad’s anger issues, and he had never heard of it either. He called me, concerned that my son was just misrepresenting a dyslexic condition.
I’m still researching and hoping to find more information. I’ll also be looking for more information on Dr. Bandler.
I have the same condition.
I found this in “Frogs into Princes – Neuro Linguistic Programming” Richard Bandler and John Grinder live, 1979 Real People Press.
This book is out of print but you can find pdf copies on the web. The book is basically a transcript of a seminar.
Richard Bandler is speaking here.
(page 44)
“If you have any fragment of any experience, you can have it all. Let
me ask you to do the following: Roll your shoulders forward and close
your eyes and feel as though something or someone is pushing down on
your shoulders. And then take those feelings, intensify them, and let
them come up into a picture. Who or what do you find there? As you
get the picture, I want you to notice some dimension of the picture that
is connected with some sound that would be occurring if that were
actually happening. And now hear the sound.
That’s the principle of overlap. You can always go to the state of
consciousness a person indicates by their predicates, and from there
you can overlap into any other dimension of experience and train a
person to do any of these things.
Richard: I know. I did it myself. Four years ago I couldn’t see an
image; in fact I didn’t know that people did. I thought people were
kidding when they did visual guided fantasies. I had no idea that they
were actually seeing images. And when I figured out what was going
on, I realized that there were these differences between people. Then I
began trying to make images. Of course, the way I first tried to make
images was by talking to myself and having feelings, which is the way
people who have trouble making images usually go about it. They say
to themselves “Gee, I should look at this even harder!” and then feel
frustrated. Of course, the more I talked to myself and the more I had
feelings, the less I could see images. I had to learn to do it by overlap: by
taking a feeling or a sound and then adding the visual dimension.
You can use overlap to train a client to be able to do all systems,
which I think is a benefit for any human to be able to do. You yourself
can notice which of the representational systems you use with
(page 45)
refinement and sophistication, and which you have difficulty with.
Then you can use overlap as a way of training yourself to be as
sophisticated in any system as you are in your most advanced.
Let’s say you have good kinesthetics but you can’t visualize. You can
feel yourself reach out with your hand and feel the bark of some tree.
You explore tactually until you have a really good kinesthetic
hallucination. You can visualize your hand, and then you look past
your hand inside your mind’s eye and see what the tree looks like, based
on the feelings—as you feel the roughness, the texture, the temperature
of the bark. If you visualize easily and you want to develop auditory,
you can see the visual image of a car whirling around a comer and then
hear the squeal of the tires.
Man: Would a congenitally blind therapist be at a disadvantage?”
I’ve tried to e-mail Mr. Bandler for more details on this process and have had no reply. Maybe if enough people e-mail him, we can get a response.
It’s available on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Frogs-into-Princes-Linguistic-Programming/dp/0911226192
I must say after reading this I am so glad I am not the only one experiencing these bizaar traits. For as long as I can remember I have not been able to picture faces or places in my mind, asleep or awake. In my dreams I don’t see people’s faces, I just somehow know who they are. I am a very good artist… though only when I am able to look at something am I able to draw, paint, mold, etc. Still, I think that goes hand-in-hand with what we’re talking about, since I can’t visualize the image in my mind to draw it, I need to see it to be able to recreate it. I have often felt horrible for not being able to even imagine my husband’s face or my close relative’s faces. I often find myself staring at them, especially my husband since I’m with him most. He’s told me it’s creepy and I’ve had to explain to him that I’m not staring at him because of some perverse thought, rather I am desperately trying to correct my problem by trying to memorize his face and the more I do the more I’ve come to realize that I’m not actually being able to visualize his face but rather recall from memory his distict facial features. So, if someone asked me to describe what my husband looked like I could tell them by giving them the generic descriptions that I have memorized whilest not actually visualizing his face. It’s all so strange and annoying to me and I am glad to know that I’m not the only one experiencing some of these things.
@ Samantha – Very interesting to find another person with this condition who can do art. I have drawn all my life and am now most of the way through a Bachelor’s Degree in Art with a focus in painting. I agree with your assessment that this inability may actually make one with artistic proclivities better able to focus on what is in front of them.
Karen,
Thanks for writing. I have been remiss in updating the blog with new information, but I have found that there is a name for this condition. But locating information is still taking time. It’s called Visual Object Agnosia. Apparently there are varying degrees, some which include prosopagnosia. Some even include alexia, which equates to a form of dislexia. I’ll update with more information when I’ve got some compiled. But it seems to be something not enough people are aware exists.
Kat
I feel ya. I’m in your boat…although I can visualize in dreams. When I’m awake though, nothing. I feel things, I know things…but all that is encoded is stuff I deliberately noticed as in “Oh, that’s an interesting blue coat”. I feel your pain!!! It sucks!! Oh, and I also am horrible with movies as I don’t recognize most actors so perhaps a tinge of prosopoagnosia!
I’m glad I found all of you!
First, sorry, but English is not my born language, so…
In my last months I read several self-help and memory books (I´m a procrastinator, and I’m trying to memorize things better also), and they all have instructions to visualize this, visualize that, bla bla bla… what???
So… now I know that there are several degrees of “visualization disorder”!
So, first, I will describe mine:
I’m intelligent (high IQ, good at school in several disciplines – geography, math, chemistry, languages, biology, history, music, etc.), but I’m very bad at drawing (my draws look like as done by an 4 year old boy).
I don’t have much problems in recognition of people, but I know that I’m not as good, doing it, as some of my friends! I have a very little problem with very similar actors in the first times I see them!
But I can’t describe the other people faces… it’s funny reading this text, because for so many years I told to several people that if I witness a crime, I can’t describe the bad guys faces to the police!
I see images in my dreams ( I think so, because when I awake I can remember for some seconds that I saw things, but I can’t visualize them).
I can imagine things, but I describe all with words in my mind!
Example: imagine a table with a green vase on the right and a red bottle on the left… ok… I can imagine that, but I can’t visualize it! I know what the things are, where they are… so it’s fine for me… it works!
Now, I know that other people can do it better, they can visualize it.
One thing that it’s strange, it’s the fact that I almost use visualization to spell words!
I’m portuguese, and with portuguese words it’s almost impossible to me to make errors when I write them! I always said to me that I can visualize the word, so because of that I don’t make errors! Now, thinking better about that, I know that it’s not really visualization, but it’s close…
So, now I want to learn it!
I think that visualization is an ability! An ability that I don’t have, but I want to acquire it!
I think that maybe the first step it’s gonna be the hardest one! The first visualization! Like opening a door for the first time!
Visualization it’s connected with some part of my brain that is asleep, and i want to awake it… maybe with some exercises different from visualization. Like the wrestlers or athletes that go the gym, they train the muscle in a different way that they want to use it.
I have several ideas to try to help me to visualize or try to awake that part of my brain used for visualize:
- learn to draw, learn to draw with the right brain
- Binaural beats
- Meditation
- NLP books, articles, exercises…
- Lucid dreaming
- Visualization exercises ( I saw something about that in the Net )
I will reproduce this post in that forum ( http://forum.psychdaily.com/forum.php?t=2564 ), and I will coming back there to see what’s happening and to post my thoughts about this!
Thanks